diff --git a/changes/16.8.4.md b/changes/16.8.4.md
index 2bb9680b0..ade32caaf 100644
--- a/changes/16.8.4.md
+++ b/changes/16.8.4.md
@@ -1,3 +1,5 @@
 * Fix shape regression of Mathematical sans-serif C (#1482).
 * Fix variant selector for CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER BASHKIR KA (`U+04A0`) (#1484).
 * Fix shape of unilaterally inward-serifed `U+A794` and `U+A7C4` (#1485).
+* Fix shape of cursive LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Z WITH DESCENDER (`U+2C6B`) (#1486).
+* Fix serif placement of italic `J`s (#1487).
diff --git a/font-src/glyphs/letter/latin/upper-j.ptl b/font-src/glyphs/letter/latin/upper-j.ptl
index 19a7028d7..9da597e2c 100644
--- a/font-src/glyphs/letter/latin/upper-j.ptl
+++ b/font-src/glyphs/letter/latin/upper-j.ptl
@@ -127,15 +127,21 @@ glyph-block Letter-Latin-Upper-J : begin
 	foreach { suffix { base df dfHook serif xSerifAttach } } [Object.entries JConfig] : do
 		create-glyph "J.\(suffix)" : glyph-proc
 			include : base df dfHook CAP
-			if serif : include : serif df currentGlyph.baseAnchors.jTopSerifAttach.x CAP
+			if serif : begin
+				local attach : currentGlyph.gizmo.unapply currentGlyph.baseAnchors.jTopSerifAttach
+				include : serif df attach.x CAP
 
 		create-glyph "smcpJ.\(suffix)" : glyph-proc
 			include : base df dfHook XH
-			if serif : include : serif df currentGlyph.baseAnchors.jTopSerifAttach.x XH
+			if serif : begin
+				local attach : currentGlyph.gizmo.unapply currentGlyph.baseAnchors.jTopSerifAttach
+				include : serif df attach.x XH
 
 		if base.WithCurlyTail : create-glyph "JCurlyTail.\(suffix)" : glyph-proc
 			include : base.WithCurlyTail df CAP
-			if serif : include : serif df currentGlyph.baseAnchors.jTopSerifAttach.x CAP
+			if serif : begin
+				local attach : currentGlyph.gizmo.unapply currentGlyph.baseAnchors.jTopSerifAttach
+				include : serif df attach.x CAP
 
 	select-variant 'J' 'J'
 	select-variant 'J/noDescend' (shapeFrom -- 'J')
diff --git a/font-src/glyphs/letter/latin/z.ptl b/font-src/glyphs/letter/latin/z.ptl
index 6b1851bbe..17ba2ecae 100644
--- a/font-src/glyphs/letter/latin/z.ptl
+++ b/font-src/glyphs/letter/latin/z.ptl
@@ -9,7 +9,7 @@ glyph-block Letter-Latin-Z : begin
 	glyph-block-import CommonShapes
 	glyph-block-import Common-Derivatives
 	glyph-block-import Letter-Shared : CreateAccentedComposition
-	glyph-block-import Letter-Shared-Shapes : HCurlyTail PalatalHook RetroflexHook
+	glyph-block-import Letter-Shared-Shapes : HCurlyTail PalatalHook RetroflexHook CyrDescender
 	glyph-block-import Letter-Blackboard : BBS BBD
 	glyph-block-import Letter-Latin-X : XStrand
 
@@ -215,11 +215,6 @@ glyph-block Letter-Latin-Z : begin
 			if serifs : include : serifs CAP
 			if slash  : include : slash  CAP
 
-		create-glyph "ZDesc.\(suffix)" : glyph-proc
-			include [refer-glyph "Z.\(suffix)"] AS_BASE ALSO_METRICS
-			eject-contour 'serifRB'
-			include : VBarRight [mix SB RightSB 1.05] (HalfStroke - LongJut) Stroke
-
 		create-glyph "ZDTail.\(suffix)" : glyph-proc
 			include : MarkSet.capital
 			include : capital MODE-ZDESC
@@ -248,12 +243,6 @@ glyph-block Letter-Latin-Z : begin
 			if serifs : include : serifs XH
 			if slash  : include : slash  XH
 
-		create-glyph "zDesc.\(suffix)" : glyph-proc
-			include [refer-glyph "z.\(suffix)"] AS_BASE ALSO_METRICS
-			eject-contour 'serifRB'
-			include : VBarRight RightSB (HalfStroke - LongJut)
-				if (small == SmallZCursiveShape) Hook Stroke
-
 		create-glyph "zDTail.\(suffix)" : glyph-proc
 			include : MarkSet.e
 			include : small MODE-ZDESC
@@ -299,16 +288,18 @@ glyph-block Letter-Latin-Z : begin
 	link-reduced-variant 'z/reduced' 'z'
 	select-variant 'z/rtailBase' (follow -- 'z')
 
-	select-variant 'ZDesc' 0x2C6B
-	select-variant 'zDesc' 0x2C6C
 	select-variant 'ZDTail' 0x224 (follow -- 'ZDesc')
 	select-variant 'zDTail' 0x225 (follow -- 'zDesc')
 	select-variant 'ZSwash' 0x2C7F (follow -- 'ZDesc')
 	select-variant 'zSwash' 0x240 (follow -- 'zDesc')
 	select-variant 'zCurlyTail' 0x291 (follow -- 'zDesc')
 
+	derive-composites 'ZDesc'        0x2C6B 'Z/rtailBase' [CyrDescender.r RightSB 0]
+	derive-composites 'zDesc'        0x2C6C 'z/rtailBase' [CyrDescender.r RightSB 0]
+
 	derive-composites 'ZPalatalHook' 0xA7C6 'Z/rtailBase' [PalatalHook.r RightSB 0]
 	derive-composites 'zPalatalHook' 0x1D8E 'z/rtailBase' [PalatalHook.r RightSB 0]
+
 	derive-composites 'zRTailBR'     0x290  'z/rtailBase' [RetroflexHook.r RightSB 0]
 
 	alias 'grek/Zeta' 0x396 'Z/reduced'